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Today at 5:47:51 PM(UTC)
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MakeAstand
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Today at 7:53:10 AM(UTC)
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Yesterday at 10:04:32 PM(UTC)
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Yesterday at 8:36:27 PM(UTC)
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Yesterday at 6:30:11 PM(UTC)
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Yesterday at 5:04:38 PM(UTC)
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Yesterday at 1:08:43 PM(UTC)
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I think its kinda an interesting hand. But Im still not sure if my reasoning was good or i just made 2 bad/spewy calls and got lucky. I think check raising the flop is ok. Im hoping to end the hand there. Obv when he calls Im not happy and at the time I didnt know what to make of his call. So I check the turn. But when he bombs the turn it kind of doesnt make sense to me. The K shouldnt really help him. And by betting fairly big on the turn hes gonna make it pretty tough for me to call if he really does have a big hand (like a 4x or a full house). If he was trapping on the flop Id expect him to bet less on the turn cause that would still set him up for a river shove. If he had a hand like JJ or even Kx Id expect him to check the turn some of the time and bet the river or bet the turn and check the river. But when he shoves the river he has to have at least 4x +. I dont think hed shove the river even if he had AK. I also dont think hed just call with a 4 on the flop on a fairly wet board. He might just call if he had KK but then Id expect him to bet less on the turn, trying to milk me as much as possible. Does anyone agree with this line of thought?
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Yep nice call. I still think i check raise all in on the turn though, but well thought out
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Yeah after the flat call of ur reraise on the flop there was a big change he had a flush draw. If he had an overpair he would probably not give u a free card an move all in. After he doesnt shove on the turn i'm calling every non heart on the river maybe except an ace but ur pretty pot-commited at the end so i guess if u go with ur read on the turn u probably can shove it on the turn cuz ur probably are calling a lot of blank rivercards anyway that's all. Nice call.
Greetz
A-NuTs!
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naaaah...
checkraise on flop was good.. problem is, he could have had AK KQ AT something like that. people often call with to overcards on the flop, even after getting checkraised. so, checking the turn was weak, very weak... should have bet right away... for all u knew, he could have had like TT or JJ too, so yup, gotta be honest, u got lucky he didnt hit, since u shown strength on the flop, but then ur weakness got him to keep betting, and ur disbelieve earnd u the hand. imho a bad play that got rewarded.
oh well... not exactly bad, just... hm... risky... u kept guessing he didnt hit, but u couldnt be sure about it. ...... ok, it was a bad play :P
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Its a poorly played hand by you in my opinion that actually works out well for you.
I dont mind the pre flop call aslong as you play the rest of the hand agressively so you know where you stand, to flat call and then to play passive leaves you with tought descisions.
The check raise on the flop in good, would usually get someone off a big ace and maybe the not nut flush draw.
Youve showed strength on the flop so you really should lead out on the turn for information. You dont and he senses that as weakness (correctly id say) and bets into you, this puts you in a horrible position because you have no idea where you stand in the hand and there is not alot you can beat except the flush draw. You also give him an extra card for free if he wanted as he could of just checked back.
The river is a hard street to know exactly what to do as you dont have any information on what he has. If you call the turn and are going to call the big bet on the river I would lead out here, you may get hands like pocket 9's-J's to fold although thats it would be a hard for for them. Again it works for you the check and he puts all his chips and you call him an win, but the way you played the hand is incredibly risky, your just guessing as to what he has and at no point in the hand know where you stand.
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headworx wrote:Its a poorly played hand by you in my opinion that actually works out well for you.
I dont mind the pre flop call aslong as you play the rest of the hand agressively so you know where you stand, to flat call and then to play passive leaves you with tought descisions.
The check raise on the flop in good, would usually get someone off a big ace and maybe the not nut flush draw.
Youve showed strength on the flop so you really should lead out on the turn for information. You dont and he senses that as weakness (correctly id say) and bets into you, this puts you in a horrible position because you have no idea where you stand in the hand and there is not alot you can beat except the flush draw. You also give him an extra card for free if he wanted as he could of just checked back.
The river is a hard street to know exactly what to do as you dont have any information on what he has. If you call the turn and are going to call the big bet on the river I would lead out here, you may get hands like pocket 9's-J's to fold although thats it would be a hard for for them. Again it works for you the check and he puts all his chips and you call him an win, but the way you played the hand is incredibly risky, your just guessing as to what he has and at no point in the hand know where you stand.
I think youre just way off here, his (OP's) explanation is (imo) absolutely correct. Betting the turn is fine, but should you get called, it'll get super ugly on basically any non-8 river. His bet on the turn (especially the betsizing) reps a very narrowed range consisting of Kxhh (maybe not even), AA or a FD. He's never betting that much with a made FH, the money is getting in on the river anyways. Leading the river is probably the worst possible play ever. Period (not mentioning the fact he is super unlikely to have 99-JJ considering, yes, that again, the BETSIZING on the turn). He explained the riverplay very well, villain/donkey is NEVER (and i repeat that: NEVER) shipping KQhh/KJhh/KThh or any Kxhh there, trust me. I play exclusively NL50CG, have a lot of experience there. So his only value hand is AA imo. Unlikely, but possible, a flopped FH might play like that, but I just can't imagine someone betting the turn that big with a FH. Oh, and don't forget the 2,5x open on the button. Does he ever have a really strong hand there? I just don't see him opening very strong hands there.
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One of the most important tells in online poker is betsizing, simple as that. It just tells soooo much about hand strengths. Not preflop, not (mostly) on the flop, but on later streets.
I guess the most important (and trickiest) street is the turn. If your able to sniff out villains range (based on betsizing, position and VPIP maybe) on the turn, the game becomes that much easier.
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trisg wrote:headworx wrote:Its a poorly played hand by you in my opinion that actually works out well for you.
I dont mind the pre flop call aslong as you play the rest of the hand agressively so you know where you stand, to flat call and then to play passive leaves you with tought descisions.
The check raise on the flop in good, would usually get someone off a big ace and maybe the not nut flush draw.
Youve showed strength on the flop so you really should lead out on the turn for information. You dont and he senses that as weakness (correctly id say) and bets into you, this puts you in a horrible position because you have no idea where you stand in the hand and there is not alot you can beat except the flush draw. You also give him an extra card for free if he wanted as he could of just checked back.
The river is a hard street to know exactly what to do as you dont have any information on what he has. If you call the turn and are going to call the big bet on the river I would lead out here, you may get hands like pocket 9's-J's to fold although thats it would be a hard for for them. Again it works for you the check and he puts all his chips and you call him an win, but the way you played the hand is incredibly risky, your just guessing as to what he has and at no point in the hand know where you stand.
I think youre just way off here, his (OP's) explanation is (imo) absolutely correct. Betting the turn is fine, but should you get called, it'll get super ugly on basically any non-8 river. His bet on the turn (especially the betsizing) reps a very narrowed range consisting of Kxhh (maybe not even), AA or a FD. He's never betting that much with a made FH, the money is getting in on the river anyways. Leading the river is probably the worst possible play ever. Period (not mentioning the fact he is super unlikely to have 99-JJ considering, yes, that again, the BETSIZING on the turn). He explained the riverplay very well, villain/donkey is NEVER (and i repeat that: NEVER) shipping KQhh/KJhh/KThh or any Kxhh there, trust me. I play exclusively NL50CG, have a lot of experience there. So his only value hand is AA imo. Unlikely, but possible, a flopped FH might play like that, but I just can't imagine someone betting the turn that big with a FH. Oh, and don't forget the 2,5x open on the button. Does he ever have a really strong hand there? I just don't see him opening very strong hands there. After reading your way of looking at it and since you have alot more experiance at 25/50 i can see exactly what your saying for this hand. The betsizing on this hand by the villain is wierd all the way through the hand and against this particular villan OP played the hand well. But against a villain whos betsizing isnt giving away information about his hand (as in his betsizing represents the hands hes trying to represent) could this sort of hand be played better and is there any street where you would do something different? the 2.5x open on the button would probably be more disguised than a check here if the villain is reguarly playing agressive on the button. Cheers for helping by the way im learning alot from this sort of stuff.
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I still think a 3bet is Profitable Vs a Wide Btn opener. This hand to be honest is a bit results originated But good call non the less. It would interesting to run a filter in HEM to see if you are runner +EV in this spot.
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PlayingABC wrote:I still think a 3bet is Profitable Vs a Wide Btn opener. This hand to be honest is a bit results originated But good call non the less. It would interesting to run a filter in HEM to see if you are runner +EV in this spot. Agreed on the 3bet part. And yes, it's always easy to say that was a good/profitable call after the hand was played. But I'm still convinced that this call in that situation is profitable for the aforementioned reasons. Dunno if I would call there though, very few people bluff turn and river there, but on the other side, his betting jsut doesn't make any sense (turn and river combined ofc.)
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trisg's analysis is good...i would personally 3bet preflop against a wide button range here...and then play it strongly on that particular flop...but srsly man ur so gangsta with the way u posted the question "does u call here?" hahaha thats so gangsta!
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