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POC week 4 - 28th July, 1/4
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connectorz
#42 Posted : 7/31/2010 1:39:19 AM(UTC)
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dabeear wrote:
This makes Bear now a Hobby player. I would luv to be able to play more etc but time doesn't permit......


Please don't refer to yourself in the 3rd person. alsoo

Pokertuber wrote:
14bb = 10bb


absolutely. 4bb makes all the difference in your book bear? You gots plans to 3bet bluff some people with the extra 4bb? It makes no difference. You think I just look to get it in and gamble. You are wrong. I want you to admit that tbh.
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Cunego_D_NewAcc
#41 Posted : 7/31/2010 1:46:28 AM(UTC)
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dabeear wrote:
@ VividAAces - You 100% misunderstand what was meant by that post mate. It was in reference to the playing styles that change the higher the cash levels becomes. As one earlier poster correctly pointed out you do see less shuvn pre flop at lower stakes HU play and when you do play at higher levels you do see much more post flop pay manoevering..........

It was not meant to be any big headed comment it was meant to be a factual comment. And yes your right is has been several years since i have played those games and played at any decent level. Max I have been playing now is $2/$1 cash games and even then I can't get the time to do what I would like. Reason simple- I now have a family and a full time job that is demanding a huge amount from me. This makes Bear now a Hobby player. I would luv to be able to play more etc but time doesn't permit......


However, redundancy is looming next year and poor old bear will more than likely loose job next summer after 14 long hard years with same company !

So I might just get a chance to play a little more poker then - *smiles*

Bear, i think i have asked you this 2 times before but il try again, do you agree that shoving dont remove skill?
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dabeear
#43 Posted : 7/31/2010 8:18:48 PM(UTC)
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@ Cunego - Sorry mate thought i answered your question. You asked -

'Bear, i think i have asked you this 2 times before but il try again, do you agree that shoving dont remove skill?'.........

It depends on the situation which was what I was trying to say. if you perma shuv like 90% of the time then of course it removes skill as their is almost no post flop play where someone can out manoever you or force you to fold. An excellent example of such a style of play is covered by a well know player called Rolf Slotboom who talks about short stack play. He basically states it is amlost unbeatable by skillful players as it eliminates post flop play/skill. If you have only so many blinds and are comitting either pre flop or on the flop how can someone outplay you ?? Simply put they can't. This well know Pro demonstrates this strategy excellently in several of his books and openly admits it eliminates a lot of hard decisions post flop. As such it requires LESS SKILL to play this way and he openly admits it is an excellent way to play against a MORE SKILLFULL player............


So in summary pre flop shuvn is part of the game mate i totally agree. It is part of the skill requirements so i agree with you on this point. Where i disagree is that it should not be 80% of your game when you have more than 10 BB in play. You may say its a matter of style and that is a fair comment but when you have 14/15 BB I don't believe that should be auto shuv territory and I do believe there is room to play poker post flop.

Hope that explains a little better of where i am coming from mate...........

BigGrin

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dabeear
#45 Posted : 7/31/2010 8:26:34 PM(UTC)
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@ Connectorz - An extra 4 BB can mean the difference between shuvn and flat calling then making a move on either the flop or turn. If youreview stratgy guides on SnG's 10 man tables, 4 BB makes a huge difference to when you should or shouldn't make a move. So although you may believe 4BB is neither here not there there is a lot of literature written by many pro's that would disagree with you............I have several excellent articles written by one pro that advocates auto shuv at 6 BB but won't do it when he has 13 or 14 as there is room for play here !

Again, its a matter of what you are comfortable with and how you like to play. But you can't disagree that getting it in pre flop elimiantes decisions post flop can you ? And if you have less decisions to make the game is simplier to play..............
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connectorz
#46 Posted : 7/31/2010 11:24:24 PM(UTC)
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dabeear wrote:
@ Connectorz - An extra 4 BB can mean the difference between shuvn and flat calling then making a move on either the flop or turn. If youreview stratgy guides on SnG's 10 man tables, 4 BB makes a huge difference to when you should or shouldn't make a move. So although you may believe 4BB is neither here not there there is a lot of literature written by many pro's that would disagree with you............I have several excellent articles written by one pro that advocates auto shuv at 6 BB but won't do it when he has 13 or 14 as there is room for play here !

Again, its a matter of what you are comfortable with and how you like to play. But you can't disagree that getting it in pre flop elimiantes decisions post flop can you ? And if you have less decisions to make the game is simplier to play..............



Postflop play is more skillful than Preflop shove folding. I agree. It is also simpler to play shove fold that post flop. I agree again. To say there is NO skill is incorrect. And with 14bb it is far more +EV to play a shove fold game than try and take it to the opponent postflop. As has been said repeatedly, 14bb has no postflop play in it. So trying to grind your opponent down with concise shove folding imo is the most +ev way to win these HU matches. It was not about fear of slevin outplaying me at all, it was about me trying to win.
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Cunego_D_NewAcc
#44 Posted : 7/31/2010 11:52:18 PM(UTC)
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dabeear wrote:
@ Cunego - Sorry mate thought i answered your question. You asked -

'Bear, i think i have asked you this 2 times before but il try again, do you agree that shoving dont remove skill?'.........

It depends on the situation which was what I was trying to say. if you perma shuv like 90% of the time then of course it removes skill as their is almost no post flop play where someone can out manoever you or force you to fold. An excellent example of such a style of play is covered by a well know player called Rolf Slotboom who talks about short stack play. He basically states it is amlost unbeatable by skillful players as it eliminates post flop play/skill. If you have only so many blinds and are comitting either pre flop or on the flop how can someone outplay you ?? Simply put they can't. This well know Pro demonstrates this strategy excellently in several of his books and openly admits it eliminates a lot of hard decisions post flop. As such it requires LESS SKILL to play this way and he openly admits it is an excellent way to play against a MORE SKILLFULL player............


So in summary pre flop shuvn is part of the game mate i totally agree. It is part of the skill requirements so i agree with you on this point. Where i disagree is that it should not be 80% of your game when you have more than 10 BB in play. You may say its a matter of style and that is a fair comment but when you have 14/15 BB I don't believe that should be auto shuv territory and I do believe there is room to play poker post flop.

Hope that explains a little better of where i am coming from mate...........

BigGrin


Okey, good, thought you meent shoving removes 100% of skill.. because shovingplay in itself is skill.. i misunderstood..
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VividAAces
#47 Posted : 8/1/2010 12:32:50 AM(UTC)
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As part of this whole, connectorz vs bear thing on the shoving, i think the results kinda speak for themselves. Connectorz was winning HU matches all the time in the POC thing with his strategy, whereas bear was very hit and miss...
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dabeear
#48 Posted : 8/1/2010 2:52:25 PM(UTC)
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@ VividAAces - U do seem to take the bits that u want out and ignore the bigger picture don't u mate hmmm - Personal grudge against bear ?

Little point you forgot to mention in the POC - Bear recording Connectorz not ! And i know Connectorz will agree on this point cos he has tried it himself - It's suppa hard to pay well and record at same time.

Flapper
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lg
#50 Posted : 8/1/2010 3:13:46 PM(UTC)
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A couple of days ago I've seen some called "powerpoker93248" or sth like that openshove for 100 bb all the time and get superlucky with it. :D

But still if you intend to get somewhere with your shove it is of course a question of skill. I just don't think that shoving all the time will get you far because then it's just luck if you run into a better hand or not. But shoving around the bubble may indeed be a nice strategy because there are very few hands that will actually call themselves allin there. ;)
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connectorz
#51 Posted : 8/1/2010 5:04:41 PM(UTC)
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lg wrote:
A couple of days ago I've seen some called "powerpoker93248" or sth like that openshove for 100 bb all the time and get superlucky with it. :D

But still if you intend to get somewhere with your shove it is of course a question of skill. I just don't think that shoving all the time will get you far because then it's just luck if you run into a better hand or not. But shoving around the bubble may indeed be a nice strategy because there are very few hands that will actually call themselves allin there. ;)


What in the blue hell are you talking about?
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connectorz
#49 Posted : 8/1/2010 5:07:08 PM(UTC)
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dabeear wrote:
@ VividAAces - U do seem to take the bits that u want out and ignore the bigger picture don't u mate hmmm - Personal grudge against bear ?

Little point you forgot to mention in the POC - Bear recording Connectorz not ! And i know Connectorz will agree on this point cos he has tried it himself - It's suppa hard to pay well and record at same time.

Flapper


Guys just calling it how it is yo. VividAAces + 1 obv BigGrin. By the way. Recording whilst playing heads up affects your game 0% Glare
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