Poker Forum

(sorry for wall of text :p)
Hi folks,
im more of a tournament player and i would consider myself as a tight-aggressive player.... i am not new to cashgames but i am not extremly comfortable in playing for serious cash with my buddys - its rly fun and i love it, but sometimes its so weird that i am only stunned about the "fishy" lines or moves others are making.

some facts you guys need 2 know 2 help me :p -->
first of all, we are most of the times fullring or at least 7 players - average 8 players
we play 50c/1€ or 1€/1€ - open straddle is allowed of course (not limited to a double of the previous straddle)
its a group of like 20-30 different players - sometimes 2 tables etc. - nearly every day is a game going
in comparison to internet cashgames its more like 2/4$ or at least 2/2€ (considering the stacksizes, bettings, pot sizes and due to the straddle that is on like 75% of the hands)

i would say that 50% of the players have nearly 0 clue of pokertheory, gametheory, pokermath, implied odds etc... - they know that 2 pair is good, know what good raising hands are etc.
maybe 15% of the players are total fishes (they loose 9 out of 10 sessions, make fatal decisions, horrific calls, calling an ep raise with crap etc. - they only win if they are lucky or clash with another fish)
20% know how to play well - they are better in cashgames then me, they know when 2 bluff and most of the times when its better to fold.... they are aggressive and most of the other consider them good pokerplayers (except the hardcorefishes - they dont think at all i guess)
10% of the guys are ultratight.... they play A10 and higher they limp with smaller pairs then 10s and they make ridiculous preflop bets when they have a monster - the loose players at the table love 2 call them and crack their aces (thats why they sometimes make a nice profit, when their monsters hold)

excluding the 20% solid players and the 10% ultratight-i-bet-20bb-unopened-utg-with-my-AA-players these are the mistakes i withness over and over again when im playing there:
most of the players are just gamblers.... flushdraw means they flopped like quads and they hope 2 get it all in right now.... only 6high flushdraw? who cares im all in kinda stuff
having an open ender is like haaving flopped a straght and they call at least 1 bet
some even like gutshots and call with no pottodds knowing they are far behind
donkbetting in the preflop aggressor.... lets say its like bad etiquette if u not do it at this table :p
straddling? most do it (im doing it myself some times j4f), some do it all the time, and some straddle ridiculous ammounts (5€ to 20€)
the preflop betting makes me laugh some times.... ridiculous bets over 10x the big blind are not rare (sometimes its a good idea cause u end up in a multiway pot whit ur utg aces when u make it like 5bb and get 1 caller, because all the others call only because of pott odds)
calling with J3 os because of pott odds happens all the time etc.
having a pair? u go allin? ofc i call etc.
they all love herocalls..... calling with Ahigh is not seldom etc.
having a set is the best spot at this table.... mostly it means u get a double up

here is one (outstanding) example i remember from the latest session: its 1€sb/1€bb: straddle is on 3€, utg+1 raises to 10€..... one guy decides to go allin with AQos for his remaining 60€, the guy after him thinks about it (hes a true fish) and reraises to 130€ to squeeze and isolate the allinguy (he is holding A4os btw)..... fold fold fold fold the utg+1 raiser repops it to 300€ with AKos.... the A4 guy thinks he is committed and puts his last 150€ in.... so its AKos vs AQos vs A4os --> ofc A4os wins with a Ahigh flush because 4 clubs are comming

ok enough info i guess
i know u all would love to play in that aquarium, but whats the best strategy to play with such gamblers?
lean back and play premium only?
try to see many flops even if they are sometimes not that cheap?
how to react to these donkbetting freaks? (i mostly think they hit some of the flop if they do it - and they mostly did or they are semibluffing)
waiting for sets?
play passive?
is it even smart to raise utg/utg+1/utg+2 like 5 times the bb (unstraddled) with AQ when u know it will be a 4-6 way pot?
etc. etc.

give me some advice pls i would love 2 hear how u guys would play against these kind of gamblers/fishes/donks!!
thx

Cool. Story. Bro.

Well... It's rather simple actually. You apply what you know about pokertheory, gametheory, pokermath, implied odds etc...

Against the weak loose players you can play a fairly wide range of speculative hands, provided of course that the stack sizes offer you the correct implied odds. Remember that the implied odds are determined by two factors: The amount of money it is physically possible to win in one hand, i.e. the effective stack size, and the likelihood that your opponent will part with his money with the second best hand. For a loose fish the second factor is very large, so your speculative hands increase in value. That's why you really want to play as many hands with the fishes as you possibly can, and the only way to play a lot of hands is to play a good amount of sub standard hands, because you can't just choose to have aces all the time. Get into the hands and play poker, using your skills as well as you can.

Also if you notice that someone is willing to see a lot of flops, only to part with their hands every time they miss, then you can play virtually any hand with position and preflop initiative and make a profit.

So no. My advise would not be to just play tight. Play tight against the opponents you think are aggressive, and keep prodding the weaker players with a moderate pressure (small stabs at the pot, and sensible folds when you encounter resistance) until you catch that big hand and then you sink your claws into their wallets.

Important: Take advantage of people donking out into you. Strong players will sometimes do it with big hands and draws, but many fish think "If I check, then he will make a continuation bet, and I can't call because I have nothing. But if I take the lead then HE will have to fold if he has nothing". I make a big profit by raising any two cards when fish donk in to me, especially on dry boards. The reason is that when the fish HITS his hand, then he DOESN'T think "Gee! I have the nuts! Why not bet out, hoping he will raise with a good hand that is not as good as mine". Instead he thinks "Gee! I've got him in the trap now. Let the sucker keep betting into me. I want that continuation bet and the next one after that". Use this tip wisely. Even fish can adjust to it if you keep doing it, and especially don't do it if the pot is multi way, then it's a completely different game.

Also since it's a live game, be aware of physical tells. Don't look at the flop when it is dealt. Look at your opponents looking at the flop. The cards will still be there to look at when action comes around to you. Notice if your opponent is talking during a hand. A small speech and then a bet normally indicates a monster, especially if the subject matter is the hand being played. If someone for example says "I think you have me, but I can't fold this one" and then raises you, then check your hole cards and see if you have the nuts. If not, pretend that you were on a complete bluff and quietly fold your top pair top kicker, because not only did you get the little speech, you got a behavior that was inconsistent with the signals that were given. If he really thought that you might have him, the he would CALL, right?

Be aware of your own tells. If you think someone are trying to get a read on you, then remember what you did last time you had a monster that went to show down, and then do the same thing when you are bluffing.

another question i have and i would love to hear your thoughts about it:

the buy in!!
normally this homegame starts with blindsl 50c/50c, open straddle etc.... and later in the session like 6 hours we mostly switch to 1€/1€ cause there is more money in play and the owner of the place wants to make more ca$h raking us down and stuff.....
so in the beginning the average buyinamount i guess would be 50€....... some buy in for 40€, some even only for 30€ seeking for a fast spot to double up.... and some few (most of the time like 1-3 players - including me) chose to buy in for at least 60, mosty more near to 100€..... a starting buyin more then 100€ would be very unusual but sometimes 1 guy is doing it and more often ppl buy in for like 150€ or 200€ when they join the game late and there are some bigstacks etc.....

so what would be wise? considering the ridiculous straddleamounts, the aggression and often high bets preflop.....
is it smart to buy in for less and try to get it in early to double up? but what if it doesnt work and you have to reload? buy in again for like 40-50€ and try it again?
buy in for a big amount of cash to have the stack to put others to the test - or at least the opportunity to do so?
lets say you have like 200€ in your pockets.... buy in for 100€ and if you go broke buy in for another 100€ ? take the 200€ in the beginning?

what do you guys think?

With regards to the buy in amount, there is really only one answer: Have a stack in front of you that covers the biggest stack that someone you are better than is holding.

Remember: The implied odds of playing a hand is a product of the effective stack size and the chance that you can win it. Likewise the reverse implied odds of playing against someone who is better than you is the product of the effective stack size and the chance that you will lose your stack.

Since I suppose that the better players don't have nearly as big an edge on you as you have on the fishes, then covering the fishes is more important than not being covered by a better player.

Look at it this way: If you are looking for a quick double up anyway, then why not double up a stack that is as big as possible? I'm sure that the fishes will go all in with pretty much the same range of hands, even if it's for a lot more money.

The 99 hand... Well... I don't think I would have folded to a single bet, but if your physical tell told you that he thought he had the nuts, then it's okay. Top pair top kicker is about the bottom of the range that a fish considers to be the nuts, so even though the result of the hand is discouraging, then you should take a more philosophical view: In the long run your fold is probably about as good as a call, because your average winnings and losses in a multi way pot like this may well just about cancel each other out.


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