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Situation late stage of poker tournament
FaridAlichanov
#1 Posted : 8/9/2011 12:33:30 PM(UTC)
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Tournament after torunament i face same situation and decision. Maybe someone could help me with my dillema.

Situation:
Its deep late stage of the tournament. I have about 50bb and its looking good. Ther are 114 people left. Iam above the average chip stack. Im on 44th place. I get QQ UTG and open with 4BB. There are no short stacks on the table so i dont need to slow play or raising minimum. Thats why i choose for opening with 4BB. My image is perfect. I have only shown big winning cards. No funny lucky hands like 68 suited. So I have tight agressive image.
The guy in the middel position going quickly all in and he has me covered. He has also tight agressive image. I do not put him on AA/KK because he will reraise me and will not put all in. So i know exactly where I am. He has AKs/AKof/AQs.
So i know its a race. Having 46 BB left (still looking good) and knowing i light favourite to win do i have to call him or not? In a cash game you call automatically.

But here you have a decision: if u miss a race then you are out with 50bb. If u do win u have a big chance to reach the final table.

So what is proper thing to do??
Thanks in advance!

Farid

Qusa
#2 Posted : 8/9/2011 1:25:42 PM(UTC)
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I would go all in because at some point you will have to double up near the later stages to ensure you make the final table you could do this by waiting till you hit the nuts on a flop then get the other players to put all there chips in the middle... or by going all in preflop with a good hand such as AA KK QQ AKs AQs... the problem with waiting to hits the nuts on a flop is that its hard to get obv so it will take a long time to achieve and may come when your stack has been damaged by the blinds and the double up wont be as effective as going all in with a big hand 40-50 hands earlier...

therefore by calling a shove you are most likely going to come up against a high pocket pair such as 99 1010 JJ QQ and a player is more likely going to reraise with AA and KK is the board has checked round to them as they wont want to scare every1 out of the hand with a monster they will hope to lure people in the hand with a medium size raise..... or some may go all in with AK AQ AJ A10 in which you will have the small upper hand against AK with 54% to 46% where as if the have AQ or A? lower than a Q kicker then you have a 65%+ advantage with a chance of getting x2 chips... is more than worth a shot as you will need to double up at some point... I hope this has helped..
judgedredd13
#3 Posted : 8/9/2011 1:54:57 PM(UTC)
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In my oppinion I wouldn't open 4 big blinds cos your kinda not gonna get played back that light. I mean when you are playing against an oponent now you are playing against a much stronger range than if you 2.2x or something which isn't a good situation. You want to play aginst a wide range and by 4xing you are kinda forcing your opponents to only play against you with the top of thier range which isn't really a good situation for us. I agree I doubt he has aa or kk most the time although some guys do panic and ship it in, I think its also very liekly he could have TT, JJ aswell as ak aq. Say we know he holds exactly ak we have the age old arguement "do i need to and should I flip?" I think it depends on your edge on the table. Taking a flip is actually a good thing to do if you have a small edge or no edge on the table. This is because imagine the 2 scenarios. 50% of the time ur stack goes from 50bb to 100bb and 50% of the time u have 0bb. This might look like a 50bb swing either way but in reality it isn't. Having this 100bb stack now at this earlier stage is allowing you to float and reraise and make a ton of plays a 50bb stack does not allow you to do, So you are now winning more pots and gaining more chips with this 100bb stack than if you had folded the flip. So now everytime you dont take the flip your also losing out on these extra pots you can win from doubling up. If you think your edge is large on the table and you are confident you can find a better spot than this to get it in then I might fold but to me this looks like a clear cut call since our opponenets range is barely ever aa kk and almost always ak aq jj tt which qq plays really good against, imo if you fold here you are serioously screwin up any shot you have of winning this tourney.
ste_mc_efc
#4 Posted : 8/9/2011 4:01:50 PM(UTC)
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fwiw i have and would consider again shipping 40bbs+ as a 3bet with aa/kk. and it's spots like your utg 4x which are spots i think it can be optimal.

it looks like you're never/rarely folding. 4bbs is considered a massive raise online these days as that stage of a tournament. you said yourself you don't think he has kk/aa as he'd just re-raise and not ship. so sometimes I just ship as people with put you on ak etc.

but it is more likely that he doesn't have kk/aa so you're ahead of his range. can't fold.
I open wider than your mother's legs.
Cinarocket
#5 Posted : 8/9/2011 4:21:26 PM(UTC)
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just put it in and pray.
Fitzy
#6 Posted : 8/9/2011 6:36:41 PM(UTC)
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[ ] fold
[ ] raise to 4x

srsly, 4xing is awful, 3x is pretty bad but defendable. 2.5x or lower is good...i rarely even open 2.5x late in a tourney these days
TL900
#7 Posted : 8/9/2011 10:23:51 PM(UTC)
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click the raise button.

then

click the call button.
I <3 Dabeear
karpov42
#8 Posted : 8/10/2011 12:55:44 PM(UTC)
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I don't understand why someone would raise 4x pre and then consider folding on a 50bb-stack. Why stimulate people to shove by offering them FOUR bb and then even consider folding?

And i agree with ste_mc_efc: People can shove AA and KK here to make it look like AK, JJ or w/e. Esp. when someone is spewing 4bb.
Ricky Bobby
#9 Posted : 8/10/2011 3:51:28 PM(UTC)
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Not really sure. I think it has been about a year since I 4x and thought that people respected my raise. This is normally a snap call but u get urself in a gross spot by raising too much and not as often. Raise less with more. Widen ur range so people play back light. How do u ever expect to four bet a hand if u make it 4x all day.
Cinarocket
#10 Posted : 8/10/2011 4:27:44 PM(UTC)
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Personally i'm a big defender of the 5x.
Ricky Bobby
#11 Posted : 8/10/2011 5:31:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Cinarocket Go to Quoted Post
Personally i'm a big defender of the 5x.

I am a fan iof the 7bb raise but that is normally ny three bet size in position.

All joking aside the 4x bet size is terrible here because all ur opponent needs to do is three bet and it becomes a sick spot. Open 2.2x opponent makes it 7bbs in position (maybe less). You can now decided on if u want to fold, four bet or flat. Also it would be suicidal for ur opponent to shove over 2.2 opens. I never looked into the math but if u are ever 4x folding it should be easy to exploit at these stacks sizes .
IMP3R1UM
#12 Posted : 9/22/2011 7:05:45 PM(UTC)
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I think everthing is said. Personally i will almost always take the flip here cause it will give me a decent shot to reach the big money. As said above if the table is very easy and passive you surely can fold and run over the table.
Another advice might be to use the stats of the guy. You should never nail him on just a couple of hands: aces and kings are always possible and if he runs redicilous low numbers a fold with qq with 50bbs is not horrible.
In my opinion tournament wise you should get it in because to win tournaments you will need to win a huge flip no matter what. You shouldnt take a bust in a tournament so serious because it will block your best game. The best tournament players are commonly fearless and dont care if they bust in the first hand if they know they will mostly win the pot. If dnot they move on and registering for athe next tournament. Think about this and i am sure you will have an easier decision next time. Anyways good luck to you.
redhotpoker
#13 Posted : 9/23/2011 8:54:36 AM(UTC)
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Open for 7x the big blind, that way if you get re-raised they can only have American Airlines and you can make the fold
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