Poker Forum

Patrik is so right Poker trackers are killing poker and yeh it is cheating.If you had someone collecting data on players in a live tourney you'd get banned so whats the difference?Shame on you Barry for not putting your weight behind Patrik's proposal,maybe your affiliated in some way with Sharkscope or Poker tracker.I've always had alot of respect for Barry but seeing him squirm when asked about poker tracking software has damaged his reputation in my eyes which is sad.Imagine trying to collate info on your opponents playing patterns using a 3rd party in the wild west back in the day you would be shot as a cheat.These software programmes disuade new players from playing poker, whats the point if everyone has no edge and all your doing is paying rake.Play like a man switch off your cheat tracker.

Why would anyone get banned for collecting data in a live setting? I'm surprised there isn't a company that has video data on players.

When I was a "road" player, I kept a book with my opponents tendencies and tells since I played in various parts of the country. Online, I write notes on players, but I've never used tracking software.

I don't know what the correct solution is for online poker. I am hesitant to support the strictest rules since many people won't follow them and the most honest will be put at a disadvantage. When Rikard said Patrik thought I would be a good person to chair a committee to come up with the right rules, I disagreed since I have never seen what advantages are gained by using different types of accessory software.

Regarding the HUD:

I'm not a big HUD degen, there has been time where I didnt bother using it and some where i find it necessary but most of the time I'll try to use my HUD if i feel like I'm really better off having those datas (if i'm multitabling and not paying attention for example) and if it doesn't slow down my computer too...

I don't see how that is cheating, poker is a game of skills and luck, and whereas luck is not something you can control, skills is an element you can more or less control, and part of those skills is to be able to gather information as well live as online. I remember hearing that Phil Ivey is so good because he pays attention to every little thing happening at the table, being able to collect information and use them in your decision-making is something that can undoubtedly improve your games and you'll just end up making better decisions in the end.
Now does that mean that having the information is what makes you good or bad? Absolutely not.
It's just one of the many tools and ways that helps you to make your game better and help you throughout your decisions.
And those exist live and online, we've just witnesses the november 9 with hole cards revealed and we all know some of the players (apparently not everyone?) had friends in the crowd that came to reveal the hole cards that were shown on television, so when Ben Lamb's mate comes and tell him that the dude was bluffing against him, it's a tool that will help Ben Lamb in his future decisions making process and nobody will consider this as cheating, if i'm in a live tournament with my mate and my mate is sitting at a table with a guy that I played with before I will give him information about that player. In this day and age of poker, where people are constantly trying to get better and there are so many tools and ways out there to help those people out (strategy sites, forums, HUDs or even just talking to friends), it is a big desillusion to think that all those tools should be forbidden or that they have killed the game.
Once so much content is out there, people are gonna use no matter what some may believe about them and all that information is available to everyone, nobody is forbidden to use a HUD, nobody is denied access to Cardrunners, they werent preventing the november nine to get information after 15min delay, etc...

I'm not sure what Patrick was trying to say but it's undeniable that all those tools are convenient (if i'm playing 12 tables I can't pay close attention to all my opponent tendencies and I would have a disadvantage to the guy who plays one table and watches every hand being played), they just improve your decision making and just makes you better at poker and I think it's great because it actually rises another level of competition, the ability of getting information and the better you are at getting info the better your decisions will be so it's kinda like a sub-skill to have in poker and that is a good thing cause otherwise we'd rely too much on intelligence and memory and those are just natural abilities that you can't really work on whereas you can work a lot on improve your game through information.

I can't really speak up for live players but it's pretty clear that there are other ways of getting information than just watch out everything at your table but I didn't get good at online poker only because of how smart I am or how good my memory is, i've been talking to many friends about the game strategy, i've watched tons of videos, i've been using HUD and other tools to help me to make my decisions, there are tons of things I did that helped me to get better, and I kinda feel like I deserved to reach that level because I put in a lot of work at trying to get better and the best way to get better is to think "Alright I'm gonna talk to these friends, gonna watch these videos, read those books or use this HUD" rather than thinking "Alright I shoudln't use those information I'm just gonna try to get smarter and i'm sure i'll outplay my opponents", this way everyone gets a chance at being good and I thought that's one of the great things about poker, anybody can improve an get better and I'm glad there is all that information out there to do so and I'm sure that if Patrick was really bad at poker he'd love to have all those tools to improve his game so that he gives himself a chance to become a sicko like he is right now.

Hi Barry ok maybe i was a bit rough on you but i feel strongly that poker is being hung out to dry by people who's only interested is making money.I stated that using a '3rd party' was the problem not taking notes on your own which off course is fine.Im sure there was a real stink about this not so long back about pros hiring 3rd parties to collect data on other players in live tourneys and talk of rule changes because its making a circus outta live poker too.Poker sites could at least stop advertising on web sites promoting tracker software but they won't ive emailed and asked them,no big surprise there.It's just another scam in a long list of scams that will eventually put off 1ks of new players.Do the right thing Barry,cheating's cheating.Thanks for your reply Barry i am tickled i'm talking to one of my poker hero's i won't pretend, take care sir.

I have never heard of a 3rd party HUD. I use a HUD which only uses information gained from playing at the tables, so no 3rd party input, and this is allowed by pokerstars. Using sharkscope while playing is not allowed. don't call me a cheat buddy.

yes its your right to think its cheating. its not your right to go round calling people cheaters.

Yeah you are all using Poker Tracker etc why don't you just admit it.I suppose Patrik's just imagining there's some problem out there.I wouldn't believe you if you told me the world was round i would except it was in-fact flat.Good day to you whoever you are.Don't reply i couldn't care less for your excuses for robbing poor people on line.

yea we are all using poker tracker or holdem manager, which pokerstars allows.

Yeah your gaining an advantage through artificial means which otherwise you would not have,in the eyes of the poker purists that's cheating even if it is allowed and i would think anyone who's right minded would agree.I keep asking people here why they think Rikard and Patrik brought this up in the first place but no one seems to want to discuss the original premise that their was a problem....funny that in a pathetic way.Good day.

first u were just angry about 3rd party information being available to players, and when i brought up HUD, I was in the wrong discussion, now u are angry about HUDs. Did something traumatic happen to you involving a HUD?