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Transparent line gets reward...
mattp4
#1 Posted : 1/17/2012 11:17:50 PM(UTC)
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Here you can discuss the following hand.
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Transparent line gets reward...
FuzzzyLion
#2 Posted : 1/17/2012 11:33:02 PM(UTC)
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Not exactly a great line you took to be honest.

Could he not call with J 10,Q 10, K 10 from sb.Or A 4 suited.Your unlucky he got there on river but so lucky that you werent getting it in so bad.

How to overplay two pair no kicker.
connectorz
#5 Posted : 1/17/2012 11:36:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Go to Quoted Post

How to overplay two pair no kicker.

1 user thanked connectorz for this useful post.
B4RT3K on 1/18/2012(UTC)
mattp4
#3 Posted : 1/17/2012 11:56:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Go to Quoted Post
Not exactly a great line you took to be honest.

Could he not call with J 10,Q 10, K 10 from sb.Or A 4 suited.Your unlucky he got there on river but so lucky that you werent getting it in so bad.

How to overplay two pair no kicker.


Disagree with this. I will give u my take on the hand (also in hand description)

When he check raises on the flop ( large raise too) i would say his range includes flush draws, 57, 6 4, realistically I don't see him doing that often with top pair hands like u say, so at this point i am thinking i am ahead a decent percentage of the time as my c betting range is still really wide here.

The turn card of the 4, for me dictated my line for the rest of the hand (maybe wrongly!?)

When i call his big check raise, he is gonna barrell the turn so much. Any 2 pair hand that may have now filled up, or even if u include those 1 pair hands u mention are always going to fire the turn here, there is no reason not to, why lose value?? He leads out for a min bet, which screams 'I need another free card!' At this point, personally I weight his range massively towards Ax clubs hands or other flush draws, as nothing else makes any sense at all. So with my hand, I feel like i am almost always good on the turn, unless he is getting crazy creative. I would be interested to know what u would have done on the turn here fuzzy?

I raise because I feel i gain a tonne of value by charging him to draw here. In my eyes his shove makes no sense and still reps an oddly played flush draw and i snapped it off. It would have been a really freaky way to play any hand that was ahead of me in my opinion.

U say how to overplay two pair no kicker, as I have said I disagree as I feel like i am ahead of a massive majority of his range, and he can almost never have the hand range u suggest in my opinion. But please suggest a different line and reasons and I could be stood corrected.



FuzzzyLion
#4 Posted : 1/18/2012 12:17:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mattp4 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Go to Quoted Post
Not exactly a great line you took to be honest.

Could he not call with J 10,Q 10, K 10 from sb.Or A 4 suited.Your unlucky he got there on river but so lucky that you werent getting it in so bad.

How to overplay two pair no kicker.


Disagree with this. I will give u my take on the hand (also in hand description)

When he check raises on the flop ( large raise too) i would say his range includes flush draws, 57, 6 4, realistically I don't see him doing that often with top pair hands like u say, so at this point i am thinking i am ahead a decent percentage of the time as my c betting range is still really wide here.

The turn card of the 4, for me dictated my line for the rest of the hand (maybe wrongly!?)

When i call his big check raise, he is gonna barrell the turn so much. Any 2 pair hand that may have now filled up, or even if u include those 1 pair hands u mention are always going to fire the turn here, there is no reason not to, why lose value?? He leads out for a min bet, which screams 'I need another free card!' At this point, personally I weight his range massively towards Ax clubs hands or other flush draws, as nothing else makes any sense at all. So with my hand, I feel like i am almost always good on the turn, unless he is getting crazy creative. I would be interested to know what u would have done on the turn here fuzzy?

I raise because I feel i gain a tonne of value by charging him to draw here. In my eyes his shove makes no sense and still reps an oddly played flush draw and i snapped it off. It would have been a really freaky way to play any hand that was ahead of me in my opinion.

U say how to overplay two pair no kicker, as I have said I disagree as I feel like i am ahead of a massive majority of his range, and he can almost never have the hand range u suggest in my opinion. But please suggest a different line and reasons and I could be stood corrected.

Its a fair point Matt,

how often though do people call from the small blind with cards you suggested.....not very often.Not profitable to call with these (5,7 or 6,4 etc)out of position.Just losing money in long run so you can rule them out unless he is a total fool...but only you'd know that playing with him.

Its more likely he has small pocket pair or ace 8-ace jack ish or q 10 k 10s.Ace q i think would raise out of position.When he raises flop so large it does like flush draw.However when he bets 0.20 and then raises massive on turn,maybe its just the nit i am but i think you have to be getting out of there and wait for a better spot.At best youu are against flush draw and overs which gives him quite a few outs.At worst he has a bigger ten or 6s and your drawing very slim.
Again the nit in me i feel your best calling his 0.20 albeit a pointless bet and weak looking...and lookiing for safe card on river.Check call river unless flush or overs hit.If he is drawing to flush and misses hes going to have to bet anyway and if you are beat you lose minimum.

But Im a nit!

mattp4
#8 Posted : 1/18/2012 12:31:42 AM(UTC)
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I would say that low suited connectors and 1 gappers are a definite part of his range. In a 4 handed cash game where we are playing 200 BBs deep I think u have got to be getting into pots cheap with hands like 6 4 s and 7 5 s, so i would argue that there are a lot more drawing hands in there than you'd think, and u can't rule these kind of hands out in cash games.

Thanks for giving your chosen line. As you say its a very passive way of playing the hand. As I said before when he leads the turn for min there I am devoting so much of his range to a draw, he just wants to get to the river for nothing as much as possible. If I call the mini lead I don't see myself making any extra money out of him, as i don't think he is bluffing the river a whole lot there when he misses, or calling so my only chance of value and protecting my hand is to raise the turn in my opinion.

When he shoves, im assuming his thinking is i dont want to call off a pot bet and then just check fold when i miss, so he convinced himself he had repped a strong enough hand to have a bunch of fold equity so he shoved, with fold being his other option. Another line I could have taken I guess is to raise it to say 6.50, still would be charging him too much to draw, but might make him favour flatting to hit his flush rather than going f**k it i'll gamble the lot now.... but i dunno I am still ok with the pot raise.

To be honest I am still of the opinion that I am profitable with this line long run.
FuzzzyLion
#9 Posted : 1/18/2012 12:43:35 AM(UTC)
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Your right,i play cash games all day.Suited connectors and one gappers are massively profitable in cash games.In position though.If the guys competent enough to realise suited connected cards are profitable iin cash games hes competent enough to realise not out of position.

Its not a passive line its called pot control.

You say he wants to get to river cheap-in that case hed call your turn raise and not virtually shove if he wanted to get there cheap.Wether your winning and having to avoid outs its not profitable with 9 10 there in long run.I keep saying its profitable if only your against flush draw.Majority of time there your crushed in my opinion.

But it is only my opinion like you have yours.

Gl at tables.
B4RT3K
#6 Posted : 1/18/2012 12:56:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: connectorz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Go to Quoted Post

How to overplay two pair no kicker.


What is uuuuuuuuuuuuuppppp ?
Cinarocket
#7 Posted : 1/18/2012 1:14:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: B4RT3K Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: connectorz Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Go to Quoted Post

How to overplay two pair no kicker.



1 user thanked Cinarocket for this useful post.
B4RT3K on 1/18/2012(UTC)
bryce87
#10 Posted : 1/18/2012 1:39:22 AM(UTC)
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From my own experience I never see "fish" raising bare draws to that sizing otf. Obviously we now see that it was a draw but it was indeed a big one with the two overcards+nfd. We cannot entirely rule out 44/66/T6/T4/46 or AT/KT/QT but having said that we cannot entirely rule draws out either.

This villain's minbet OTT should be interpreted as a check, so you should check back, meaning flat the minbet. You know this as I know that you are a competent player, so I can only assume that villain's line tilted you as if we are raising the turn minbet then we are most certainly doing so with the intention of raise/folding. Once you size the turn raise this spasticly you more or less level yourself into calling off the rest of your chips.

If you weight villain's range exclusively to draws then hats off to you nh etc. But it is fairly absurd to rule all value hands out of villain's range imo.
Bear is gospel
mattp4
#11 Posted : 1/18/2012 8:42:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bryce87 Go to Quoted Post

This villain's minbet OTT should be interpreted as a check, so you should check back, meaning flat the minbet. You know this as I know that you are a competent player, so I can only assume that villain's line tilted you as if we are raising the turn minbet then we are most certainly doing so with the intention of raise/folding. Once you size the turn raise this spasticly you more or less level yourself into calling off the rest of your chips.
.


This is completely true and if he checks the turn i check back 100% of the time. Its the turn bet that completely changes the way i would normally play. I am never raising any normal sized bet or even smallish bet, so realistically maybe i should play the hand like a check. At the time of the turn bet though it literally felt like he had flipped his hand over. I know that line completely commits me too. Ahhh i dunno, i would probably be saying similar stuff as u if analysing someone else's hand, but it felt like i was never up against a better 2 pair, so i felt my kicker was close to irrelevant, i really didnt think he ever plays 10 x that way on the turn, so it was gonna be a draw or full house to me, which is a range made up of mostly draws. But maybe its a wreckless way to get my stack in.
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