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Today at 3:55:02 PM(UTC)
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Only1obie1
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obv villian doesnt always hit when we hit but we have reverse implied odd when we hit. The biggest problem I have with the 3bet is (like u outlined above) we are turning our hand into a bluff. And really villian is never folding better pre flop hardly ever. I just feel our hand is to good to turn into abluff and to gd to fold. Also we open ourselves upto being 4bet and haveto fold a decent hand.
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Originally Posted by: Jon_and_Liz obv villian doesnt always hit when we hit but we have reverse implied odd when we hit. The biggest problem I have with the 3bet is (like u outlined above) we are turning our hand into a bluff. And really villian is never folding better pre flop hardly ever. I just feel our hand is to good to turn into abluff and to gd to fold. Also we open ourselves upto being 4bet and haveto fold a decent hand. Yes, most players won't fold anything better than QTs but they will also call with worse hands. 3-betting QTs pre-flop isn't really bluffing but more like range merging. Bluffing is betting/raising with a hand that has zero or almost zero chance to win unless villain folds. For example betting on a 267 T 9 board with 54. If villain 4-bets then you can consider playing back at him depending on his tendecies. So if he 4-bets with a wide range you can 5-bet shove on him when playing +-100bb deep. So you don't necessarily HAVE to fold, it all depends.
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Originally Posted by: zigzag11 Originally Posted by: Jon_and_Liz obv villian doesnt always hit when we hit but we have reverse implied odd when we hit. The biggest problem I have with the 3bet is (like u outlined above) we are turning our hand into a bluff. And really villian is never folding better pre flop hardly ever. I just feel our hand is to good to turn into abluff and to gd to fold. Also we open ourselves upto being 4bet and haveto fold a decent hand. Yes, most players won't fold anything better than QTs but they will also call with worse hands. 3-betting QTs pre-flop isn't really bluffing but more like range merging. Bluffing is betting/raising with a hand that has zero or almost zero chance to win unless villain folds. For example betting on a 267 T 9 board with 54. If villain 4-bets then you can consider playing back at him depending on his tendecies. So if he 4-bets with a wide range you can 5-bet shove on him when playing +-100bb deep. So you don't necessarily HAVE to fold, it all depends. I honestly think Q-T might be the worst hand possible to 5 bet ship with... Your definition of bluffing is nt rly correct although i agree QT is basicly a merge (merging readless at 50nl prob nt great?). A bluff is simply a bet where u are trying to get your opponent to fold and u are probably behind if they call. for example I might 4bet A-3os HU as a bluff (not a merge at all).
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This hand has cheered me up no end tonight!!
Regardless of the light 3-bet preflop,what can u possibly beat come the river when you just stack off the rest of your chips.
Hes raised pre,hes flatted the flop and flatted the turn - id love to know what the thoughts then behind calling the river all in is?
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion This hand has cheered me up no end tonight!!
Regardless of the light 3-bet preflop,what can u possibly beat come the river when you just stack off the rest of your chips.
Hes raised pre,hes flatted the flop and flatted the turn - id love to know what the thoughts then behind calling the river all in is? villian is prob nt betting Kx on the river or flatting many 2 pair+ on the turn so he sorta only tly repping Ax which is hard for him to have after flop call its also easy for villian to have missed fd. villian cld have sets i guess but not many permutations of those obv and prob wud play faster on turn. Im assuming this is more or less heroes thoughts...
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Originally Posted by: Jon_and_Liz Originally Posted by: zigzag11 Originally Posted by: Jon_and_Liz obv villian doesnt always hit when we hit but we have reverse implied odd when we hit. The biggest problem I have with the 3bet is (like u outlined above) we are turning our hand into a bluff. And really villian is never folding better pre flop hardly ever. I just feel our hand is to good to turn into abluff and to gd to fold. Also we open ourselves upto being 4bet and haveto fold a decent hand. Yes, most players won't fold anything better than QTs but they will also call with worse hands. 3-betting QTs pre-flop isn't really bluffing but more like range merging. Bluffing is betting/raising with a hand that has zero or almost zero chance to win unless villain folds. For example betting on a 267 T 9 board with 54. If villain 4-bets then you can consider playing back at him depending on his tendecies. So if he 4-bets with a wide range you can 5-bet shove on him when playing +-100bb deep. So you don't necessarily HAVE to fold, it all depends. I honestly think Q-T might be the worst hand possible to 5 bet ship with... Your definition of bluffing is nt rly correct although i agree QT is basicly a merge (merging readless at 50nl prob nt great?). A bluff is simply a bet where u are trying to get your opponent to fold and u are probably behind if they call. for example I might 4bet A-3os HU as a bluff (not a merge at all). I see that you haven't got much of a clue what you're talking about and you don't make much sense, so I will end this discussion right here. You want to flat QTs oop? FINE! 
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villian is prob nt betting Kx on the river or flatting many 2 pair+ on the turn so he sorta only tly repping Ax which is hard for him to have after flop call its also easy for villian to have missed fd. villian cld have sets i guess but not many permutations of those obv and prob wud play faster on turn. Im assuming this is more or less heroes thoughts...[/quote]
Ridiculous.
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If you don't understand this logic then you're ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by: zigzag11 If you don't understand this logic then you're ridiculous. Please ZigZag,i fully understand, And its still a ridiculous call on the river.And its a ridiculous 3-bet preflop. You stick to trolling with your meaningless and annoying posts.
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Originally Posted by: zigzag11 If you don't understand this logic then you're ridiculous. Please ZigZag,i fully understand, And its still a ridiculous call on the river.And its a ridiculous 3-bet preflop. You stick to trolling with your meaningless and annoying posts. 
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion Originally Posted by: zigzag11 If you don't understand this logic then you're ridiculous. Please ZigZag,i fully understand, And its still a ridiculous call on the river.And its a ridiculous 3-bet preflop. 
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Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion
villian is prob nt betting Kx on the river or flatting many 2 pair+ on the turn so he sorta only tly repping Ax which is hard for him to have after flop call its also easy for villian to have missed fd. villian cld have sets i guess but not many permutations of those obv and prob wud play faster on turn. Im assuming this is more or less heroes thoughts...
Ridiculous. [/quote] you asked a "pretty dumb"/unexperienced comment, which the guy answered nicely to, and you reply with the word rediculous, which imo is a bit rude.. can you explain why you think its rediculous? not because i want to learn how you think but because it will probably give me a big laugh
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Right, I've taken a look at this hand in more detail since you posted it on skype...
Firstly, I like 3b'ing QTs a lot more than flatting -> certainly out of position. It's a hand that is often going to be dominated but it's too weak a play to just fold, so take the initiative and quite often you're going to get better hands to fold post flop on all sorts of boards...or alternatively flop well and be happy getting it in with a combo draw etc. as an example.
Secondly, I know you said to me on skype about this, he has in his range QJdd, JTdd, 87s etc. but that's such a small part of his range...I have no idea why you'd check call this river with Q high. If he was a competent player, he's still going to value shove two pair, Kx etc. Axdd
Yes, there are bluffs in his range, but I believe he's going to be shoving more value hands than bluffs and this doesn't outweigh the marginal hands that you can get to fold with a river shove. I'm kind of confused by the thought process because your turn bet sizing seems to indicate that you've set up a perfect river shove on any blank river...or any river you can barrel bluff
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Originally Posted by: Cunego__D Originally Posted by: FuzzzyLion
villian is prob nt betting Kx on the river or flatting many 2 pair+ on the turn so he sorta only tly repping Ax which is hard for him to have after flop call its also easy for villian to have missed fd. villian cld have sets i guess but not many permutations of those obv and prob wud play faster on turn. Im assuming this is more or less heroes thoughts...
Ridiculous. you asked a "pretty dumb"/unexperienced comment, which the guy answered nicely to, and you reply with the word rediculous, which imo is a bit rude.. can you explain why you think its rediculous? not because i want to learn how you think but because it will probably give me a big laugh [/quote] Firstly i didnt ask them a question!Iasked you a question on what you could possibly think your beating by calling the river all in! Not stupid or unexperienced- a question that you seem to have not answered because there is no genuine reason for calling. For someone so "experienced" or so you would have us believe, thats a pretty poor 3 bet from an experienced player.Most players three bet hands that either are premium or that arent going to be dominated alot of the time as other people have already said.My initial point was he's raised pre and then flatted in position,he then calls the flop,and then shoves river.You still cant beat anything.YOU HAVE Q HIGH FOOL.He either has complete air which is doubtful,or K - A - Pair preflop reluctant to let go.Whatever it is its a joke call from the "experienced"player that is Cunego!
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Originally Posted by: PapaBeear Right, I've taken a look at this hand in more detail since you posted it on skype...
Firstly, I like 3b'ing QTs a lot more than flatting -> certainly out of position. It's a hand that is often going to be dominated but it's too weak a play to just fold, so take the initiative and quite often you're going to get better hands to fold post flop on all sorts of boards...or alternatively flop well and be happy getting it in with a combo draw etc. as an example.
Secondly, I know you said to me on skype about this, he has in his range QJdd, JTdd, 87s etc. but that's such a small part of his range...I have no idea why you'd check call this river with Q high. If he was a competent player, he's still going to value shove two pair, Kx etc. Axdd
Yes, there are bluffs in his range, but I believe he's going to be shoving more value hands than bluffs and this doesn't outweigh the marginal hands that you can get to fold with a river shove. I'm kind of confused by the thought process because your turn bet sizing seems to indicate that you've set up a perfect river shove on any blank river...or any river you can barrel bluff Everybody saying about initiative is weird imo, surely position and stronger range > initiative? Also people realise by 3betting we get him to fold like all hands we dominate except maybe JT, 9T? As for a competent player shipping 2 pair for value, yes i agree but just dont see a competent player getting to the river with two pair hardly ever like this. Disagree with competent player shipping Kx for value tho. I thought about it already and villian sort of looks like hes on a draw so hero might check to induce missed draws to bet alot. Also pretty hard for hero to call with worse than Kx. Shipping Kx just seems to thin. Yes villian can have Ax diamonds (i missed this b4 cos im a fish) but prob nt many combos (he 4bets AQdd? and nt sure but shld prob fold A8 and below)
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I wouldn't c/f the river, especially not at 50nl because most of those players don't even realize a river shove would look so bluffy that they will get hero called alot by better players. Better river play would be to shove yourself, villain is going to have alot of weakish made hands plus missed draws after calling the small turn bet.
but anyone who thinks 3-betting QTs oop is bad/ridiculous should hang themselves.
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Originally Posted by: zigzag11 I wouldn't c/f the river, especially not at 50nl because most of those players don't even realize a river shove would look so bluffy that they will get hero called alot by better players. Better river play would be to shove yourself, villain is going to have alot of weakish made hands plus missed draws after calling the small turn bet.
but anyone who thinks 3-betting QTs oop is bad/ridiculous should hang themselves. This is obv a reason to check call not shove? BTW I never meant to suggest 3 betting TQ is terrible just worse than flatting. As I said earlier imo: Calling > 3betting > folding.
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Originally Posted by: zigzag11 I wouldn't c/f the river, especially not at 50nl because most of those players don't even realize a river shove would look so bluffy that they will get hero called alot by better players. Better river play would be to shove yourself, villain is going to have alot of weakish made hands plus missed draws after calling the small turn bet.
but anyone who thinks 3-betting QTs oop is bad/ridiculous should hang themselves. Profitable play is it in the long run ZigZag-no i doubt it! Bet your mum wishes she hung you - you annoying pleb
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Originally Posted by: PapaBeear Right, I've taken a look at this hand in more detail since you posted it on skype...
Firstly, I like 3b'ing QTs a lot more than flatting -> certainly out of position. It's a hand that is often going to be dominated but it's too weak a play to just fold, so take the initiative and quite often you're going to get better hands to fold post flop on all sorts of boards...or alternatively flop well and be happy getting it in with a combo draw etc. as an example.
Secondly, I know you said to me on skype about this, he has in his range QJdd, JTdd, 87s etc. but that's such a small part of his range...I have no idea why you'd check call this river with Q high. If he was a competent player, he's still going to value shove two pair, Kx etc. Axdd
Yes, there are bluffs in his range, but I believe he's going to be shoving more value hands than bluffs and this doesn't outweigh the marginal hands that you can get to fold with a river shove. I'm kind of confused by the thought process because your turn bet sizing seems to indicate that you've set up a perfect river shove on any blank river...or any river you can barrel bluff you are right, after i posted the hand i thought that shoving beats calling sinse i get alot of 67s and stuff i lose to when check/calling i also lose too.. but as you say a competent player might shove Kx Ax etc, this is speed poker, most of the field is pretty poor (me included), the opponent wouldnt shove a hand like that and i dont think he has a value hand here either (except a3 or what the river was).. i belive this is a bluff from the opponent 95%+ of the time, but including in those bluffs it exist alot of hands that actually beats me like 3xss, 6xss.. i dont know what has the most combos of air that beats me compeared to air that i beat and what would be the most profitable play, but i agree that shoving could be better or most likely is better..
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Originally Posted by: Jon_and_Liz Originally Posted by: zigzag11 I wouldn't c/f the river, especially not at 50nl because most of those players don't even realize a river shove would look so bluffy that they will get hero called alot by better players. Better river play would be to shove yourself, villain is going to have alot of weakish made hands plus missed draws after calling the small turn bet.
but anyone who thinks 3-betting QTs oop is bad/ridiculous should hang themselves. This is obv a reason to check call not shove? I generally like putting my chips all-in more than villain putting me all-in and being forced to make a tough decision. I think villains range is much more wider than general because hero has bet the turn for less than half the pot. Villain might call the turn with a hand as weak as 76s for example. But on the other hand hero only needs to be good 28% of the time for calling the river bet, so I think it's pretty close but I still say bet>c/c.
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